Evolutionism is a theory that badly needs refuting, but you’re not going to do it by telling me that the creation of man and the creation of the fruit fly were equally miraculous events …
OK, I promise not to do that.
… nor by asserting vague reservations about the speed of light and the properties of matter.
These aren’t vague reservations, and this isn’t a peripheral issue. The laws of nature were not always what we observe today. That’s not speculation, that’s the truth. The creation events, as you would certainly acknowledge, were supernatural (or pre-natural) processes, in which earthly matter came into existance ex nihilo. If a team of scientists looked upon the world just one year from the date of creation, set up their laboratory, and attempted to date the rocks (or whatever you imagine was there) based on the assumptions they use today, what do you think the results would have been? The results would be inaccurate because their assumptions would not be valid. Similarly, if the universe is expanding, is it not probable that the rate of expansion was different at the creation than it is today, and that the stars began their life much closer to earth than they are today, and that the light we see today has not come from the stars in their present location, and that the stars cannot tell us their true age because they cannot tell us their true distances? Nevermind that the speed of light depends upon the medium in which it travels, and that medium was obviously different when the stars were created than it is today. All of this is only to say that estimating the age of the earth, or of the universe, is something entirely different from dating an oak tree or a horse femur. We can’t use the same assumptions about natural processes when we are dating something that reaches back to creation itself. I don’t see anything the least bit controversial about that.
You need to say when these things were not what they are, based on some evidentiary necessity and not on your sense that the evidence doesn’t sit well with Revelation.
The Creation, the period of incorrupt nature before the Fall, and the Deluge. These are the three historical times when it is certain that “nature” did not behave in the way we would expect from modern observations. Catholics have to keep this in mind when dating anything that may have been affected by them. Obviously, the age of the earth falls into this category. The evidentiary necessity is revelation itself. We know these things happened and that the laws of nature were impacted. Any scientific method that ignores them is suspect.
Do you really want a God who creates all things in maturity (which levels our sense of the miraculous), or who tinkers here and there frequently and unpredictably, thus rendering impossible our ability to distinguish the miraculous from the natural?
I don’t understand how this levels the sense of the miraculous. Anyway, belief in a young earth does not require a God who perpetually and arbitrarily tinkers with nature so that nothing is predictable. This is required by theistic evolution, but not special creation.
If you want to defeat evolution, defeat it on its own terms, not on terms dictated by the possibilities of spiritual truths.
That seems to be the approach of the Intelligent Design movement, which is well and good if it succeeds. But that’s not my approach. The terms of evolution are ultimately flawed, so why should Catholics accede to them at all? I agree that the “possibilities of spiritual truths” should not dictate the terms of the debate. Rather, evolution can and should be defeated by all the material and historical truths that are available to us, no matter their source. The problem with the ID crowd is that they generally want to exclude the facts of Christian revelation.

4 responses to Evolution vs Creation Debate
1. “…estimating the age of the earth, or of the universe, is something entirely different from dating an oak tree or a horse femur..” All right. So is the the age we give to dinosaur bones accurate?
2. “I agree that the “possibilities of spiritual truths” should not dictate the terms of the debate. Rather, evolution can and should be defeated by all the material and historical truths that are available to us.” But earlier you say,”The Creation, the period of incorrupt nature before the Fall, and the Deluge. These are the three historical times when it is certain that “nature” did not behave in the way we would expect…” I’ll grant you the Creation, though many scientists would not like the word. But the Fall and the Deluge are articles of faith. There is no historical evidence that they happened, though you and I believe they did. Arguing before a group of sceptics that these events make the reading of nature’s signals unreliable will get you exactly nowhere.
3. “I don’t understand how this levels the sense of the miraculous.” I’ll try again. You said that a young earth had to have emerged in a state of maturity. God made man, and all other things, at once, together. That’s how I read it. Maybe I’m wrong. If you don’t see how this dims the brightness of our appearance, I give up. That God would step outside the order of nature to make us is indeed worth noting. That he would do it for all lesser creatures is not. My objection to “a God who perpetually and arbitrarily tinkers with nature so that nothing is predictable” was not aimed at young earth proponents, but at Intelligent Design theorists (among whose numbers I do not count myself), especially if Michael Behe’s Irreducible Complexity is part of that theory, for he would have God dropping in now and then to put a flagellum on a bacterium. (The ID crowd must exclude reference to Christian revelation. They’re trying to argue an alternative theory of science.)
4. You still haven’t told me why it’s so important to you to cleave to the young earth, or, if you found out it wasn’t young, how it would in any way diminish the credibility of religion.
5. “Catholics have to keep this in mind when dating anything that may have been affected by them…” (i.e., the Creation, etc.) I may have mistakenly assumed that your audience consisted of naturalists (agnostics and materialistic atheists) in whom you’d wish to instill doubt about their evolutionary religion. But if you’re preaching to Catholics, among whom your arguments may find some success because they share your assumptions, it is well to remember that a fair portion of that audience is called the choir.
6. Why aren’t more people participating in this exchange? I know they’re reading. You don’t have to answer that.
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Evolution vs Creation Debate
Briefly for now:
1) Dinosaur bones probably predate the Deluge, and so I take their alleged “ages” with a grain of salt.
2) I disagree about there being no historical or scientific evidence for the Deluge: there is tons of literature on this.
3) Whether or not secular science happens to believe something, Catholics should never be dissuaded from doing science according to what they know to be true.
4) I am mostly concerned with Catholics who accept theistic evolution (and the corollary of old earth theory) rather than naturalists.
5) If I found out the earth was old, it would be based on much more evidence than has been offered to date. But it would not shatter my religion. I’ve been wrong before, I may be wrong again.
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Evolution vs Creation Debate
“is the date we give dinosuar bones accurate”
yes, very!
these bones are dated using what is called carbondating, carbondating reads the amount of a certain radioactive carbon isotope, this radioactive isotope has a very specific half life and all living things are made up of a certain percentage of this isotope (.0283341%). by measuring the percentage of this isotope in the carbon remains we can see how much less corbon there is than what there should be. when we know that we can then calculate (to whithin 150 years) how old the fossil is.
so in answer to your question the age we give dinosaur bones is accurate to within 150 years, just a drop in the ocean compared to the 360,000 years since the supposed end of the dinosaurs.
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Evolution vs Creation Debate
well the earth is old some ppl say its millons of years old others say its billons of years old but if you go back and research you would most likely find somthing but if you look in the word of God and look and read and research how old the world is you would probly find out that its about 8,000 years old on how the word of God has been put togather…
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Evolution vs Creation Debate
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